read the whole Book II and the allegory of cave in Book VII
text available at http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html
Journals due on Feb. 18
guidance questions:
1. Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good, to which does justice belong?
2. Which problem did Adeimantos find in poems and religion? What does he want Socrates to prove?
3. What's the requirement of guardians in the proposed city?
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1.Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good,to which does justice belong?
ReplyDeleteGlaukon mentioned three kinds of goods which are the highest class of goods,a second class of goods and a third class of goods.
I think that justice belongs to the highest class of goods because when Glaukon asked Socrates that in which of the three classes he would place justice,Socrates replied,"In the highest class." and the meaning of the highest class of goods for me is justice.
It is very difficult to think about justice and justify things we do because we think about ourselves like what is the best things for us first and then others but I believe that the highest class of goods enable to lead justice.
As Glaucon restates the argument of Thrasymarchus (who, bested, had disappeared from the conversation), one must remember that he is stating it for the state of consensus, recapitulating the case against justice put forth by the grumpy sophist (Glaucon ironically making a much stronger), using this established view of justice for the sake of the argument. He describes to Socrates the three general levels of good and asks him to place justice in one of them: the first (and highest) being unadulterated, effortless pleasure without thought of consequences; the second being accepted for both its possible pleasures, rewards, and consequences; and the third being least desirable, seen as nothing but consequences and utilized only in pursuit of reward.
ReplyDeleteWhen attempting to place justice in these limited categories, I believe one must consider the different perspectives of justice being used. The perspective of justice Glaucon places in the third category is in line with his consensus: a limited, unenlightened view, not unlike the same put forth by Thrasymarchus, obviously favoring injustice greatly. If we are speaking from this viewpoint, then yes, one might be mad to place a justice defined as such in any other category. However, it is a justice grossly different from the absolute right that Socrates is pursuing. One might say that the former idea of justice is feigning virtue in pursuit of pleasure, and the latter is virtuous in pursuit of an absolute virtue; that is, the latter is justice for the sake of being just. Therefore, if we are to take the Socrates view of justice as our own, it can place nowhere else but the first category, for if one is truly virtuous in this manner they do not think of the consequences and difficulty of acting out their justice and sacrifice but are rather virtuous and just for the sake of the right, and they find nothing but the highest form of good in their justice, as an unjust man might find nothing but pleasure in successful thievery. If one is to be as this just man, it can be no other way.
(Unrelated, but I think the reply-to-comments thing on here is broken for all of us.)
JohnVeranes
although a perfect defination for just was not found socrates feels he has appropriately answered Thrasymachus and was done discussing about just,but Glaucon was still not satisfied
ReplyDeletewith socrates response so he proposed three types of good and wanted to know which one just belongs to. the first one pleasures we welcome for their benefit and independently of their consequences for example harmless pleasures and enjoyments which delight us at that time and nothing follows second he stated knowledge,health,sight which which are desirable for themselves and their results and third he stated that good such as gymnastics,care for the sick,physician art and also various ways of making money which one will not choose for their pleasure but results that follow them.socrates chooses the good which would benefit you with its pleasures and its later results as the one which would best be just.
Glaucon still not satisfied wanted to know the true meaning of just whether which has ordained by the law and named lawful and just he also wanted to prove a point that injustice would benefit more than justice.he tells a story of a man who found an ring which could make him invisible and with the advantage of being invisible became unjust.which implies that if a just man feels it is safe for him to be unjust without any body noticing he would be unjust,for it was very difficult to practice being just.
Adeimantus raises a point to state that that justice was better he then goes on to say that the foundation of people being just was influenced by their parents when they were children as their parents where concerned about their reputation.poets were also partly blamed for people being unjust,because write about god forgiving men for being unjust through prayers and offering sacrifice,which also implies that gods are influenced by men and if that be the case everybody might as well live unjust and ask for forgiveness later.
socrates was then asked to define just.socrates then sets up a stratagy to define being just by first locating the origin of being just.they decided to form a state and in forming the state they would find the true source of just.the state in which they propose to build starts with four people who whould only satisfy basic needs as the state progress through wants and needs it is noticed that the people needed to form a state increases with people with different skills to make a solid state.at the highest point of a state it was said that a state would need a guardian to protect it.the guardian proposed was to be a noble youth well bread in guarding and watching, should be brave,dangerous to enemies and gentle to friends it was also suggested they he should be able to destroy themselves before the enemies destroy them and most importantly must be able to identify friends and enemies learning in the process therefore be a philosopher.it was also proposed that the guardian must be brought up in a healthy way gymnastics to benefit the body and music to feed the soul.music which is also includes literature leads us back to poets and writers who sometimes write fictional stories which are told children who may grow up to believe its true.poets sometimes tell stories about quarrels among the gods and punishment which misleads the youth,poets also write exaggerating stories.
although no true definition was found of just was found it can be said that poets and writers influence peoples perception of just and unjust.
When Glaucon mentions the three kinds of good, justice is placed into the highest class. He states that being unjust is greater than being just in a powerful manner. “Evil is greater than good.” With this in mind, being just will benefit more than being unjust. In the story told, Glaucon states that by nature a man will act unjust before being just. I think what he means by this is that people don’t understand they do wrong or evil until after the good is stated or thought upon. Being unjust is basically a desire that is uncontrollable but is thought to more likely be punished as oppose to being just which is rewarded upon.
ReplyDeleteAdeimantos found out that the problems in poems and religion always state that being just is always a better option, its brings forth for the rich rather than being unjust, dishonest and poor. “Justice and Virtue are honorable.” What he means by this is that, its always stated that gods will reward those that are just with happiness and those that are the enemy weather good or bad will be questioned. He asks Socates to prove,” how can a man who has any superiority of mind or person or rank or wealth, be willing to honor justice.” He is basically asking Socrates to find out why are the rich, the powerful, and the knowledgeable are still bound to the same rules of justice or even if they see justice as inferior to themselves.
Stated in the passage, the requirements of a guardian are the same as the qualities of a philosopher. He compares being a philosopher to the traits of a dog. He explains to Socrates that a dog’s trait can distinguished the presents of a good man or an enemy as to a philosopher, they compare just from unjust. In our minds guardians protect us from evil and wrongs doings, a philosopher distinguish the difference between the two and chooses, same as a dog, their traits tell them how to be defensive towards negative things and be gentle towards the good.
Glaucon explains that all goods can be divided into 3 different classes. The three classes Glaucon states are things that we desire for their outcomes, things that we desire for their own sake and for the outcomes we get from them such as health, knowledge and sight. What Socrates is expected to prove is that justice is not only desirable but that it belongs to the classes desired for both their own actions and consequences.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Glaucon, people view justice as a necessary evil which allow ourselves to suffer in avoidance to the greater evil. Glaucon mentions that justice is from human weakness and vulnerability, therefore we make a social contract in agreement to be just to one another. To emphasize his statements he appeals to an experiment, invoking the legend of the ring of Gyges. In closing his statement he propose that people prefer to be unjust rather than just but that is rational for them to do.
After reading book 2, the definition of justice has still yet to be found. The proceeding conversation between Glaucon and Socrates concentrates solely around the 3 categories of Justice that Glaucon explains to Socrates as being; the first; which is also the highest, being pure, effortless, unchecked and done with no thought needed for the consequences; second being accepted for its possible pleasures, rewards, and the consequences that may occur from it; and finally the third being the least desirable, seen as nothing but consequences and chosen only for the rewards reaped from it.
ReplyDeleteWhen asked what category he would place justice. Socrates firmly answers with the first category. For me justice has no boundary. I feel that there shouldn’t be a category of justice. It should be served to all no matter what the consequences but if we go off Glaucons’ categories he states that within the first category, when chosen, consequences are ignored. I disagree…. I think people in any right mind feel consequences from any form of justice. Guilt, Hate, Regret to name a few. The definition of justice is something that is higher than man and law, it is nature. Politicians and men of power have the ability to influence and corrupt the true form of justice.
Samantha Jones
ReplyDeleteHow would you arrange goods, goods are of classes of three.
Harmless pleasures and enjoyments, which delight us at the time..
In which of these three classes would you place justice? The highest class socrates replied, with the goods who which he who would happy desires there own sake and a sake for there own results. Glaucon restates the argument of Thrasymarchus, best of off topic or best disapeared from the argument. Glaucon made it stronger by placing the goods into three classes and asked for which one would justice be most likely placed in out of the three classes.
one, the highest being unadulterated, effortless pleasure without a thought of consequences next, being accepted for both its possible pleasures, rewards, and consequences. And last class... being least desirable,only consequences and in pursuit of a reward.
2. Which problem did Adeimantos find in poems and religion? What does he want Socrates to prove?
To place justice into three ways is to limited, though Glaucon placed his justice with the third class, it is said that all three are types or justice and limited on what are the steps of un-justice since it was seen as un-justice the justice.
The justice that Socrates, is it any close to the type or justice that he is walking on the line twords and lives by. Or is socrates on a whole other level.
Justice could be a sacrifice layed down on the sight of a virtue, to accomplish a sake of right. Could you even do bad and be blessed with the full effect of justice from your virtue, we are all just men. Thus we all have justice. What is just? Socrates is to explore and define the word just but from an origin that it had originaly came from, they needed to find the true source of just by forming one state with a few people that can preform basic niches. Then they grow stronger and learn new skills to make a solid state. At its highest it was said a guardian was needed to protect it, a youth should be dangerous and well bread and is brave. One must be able to show that friends and enemies are still in the learning proses.
The different niches you have feeds your mind in different ways feeding you with food for though. Poets, a source of litriture by writing fictoinal stories that kids pick up the grow old of and make aruguments over gods and punishment that misleads the youth and the poets wright intence stories, still seen as unjust
According to Glaucon there are three kinds of good which exist and of the three kinds of good justice belong to the third. in the third kind of good glaucon states that a physician heals the sick not for the sake of the sick but in hopes of some reward that he may receive in in aiding the ill.this type of good can be seen in today's society in which if you do not have health insurance the Doctors may be hesitant to assist you.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Adeimantus the problem with the poems that was being told at the time was that it praised the just and punished the unjust but how can it punish some1 who appears to be unjust but who is truly not but and praise the one who appears to be just but is indeed unjust.as far as this goes i felt as if i need a little more enlightenment on the subject because i didnt fully comprehend the statement made by Adeimantus.
In the proposed city the requirement of a guardian is to be one who is philosophical and at the same time have the characters of being swift and strong while maintaining a healthy spirit.Socrates goes on to compare a guardian of the state to a dog. it must be free with its friends and harsh to strangers.
islam douban
ReplyDeleteIn republic book two Glaukan talked about three different class type of goods. The first class was harmless pleasure & enjoyments. The second class was about knowledge, sight and health. The third class he talked about was about gymnastics and care for the sick. he also stated that a physicians art was another way of money making and that no one would choose them except for a reward or to gain from.
Glaukan said that "evil is grater then good" and if you do one its hard to avoid from doing another.
I'm not really sure of what the problem that he had with the poems and religion but from what i understood was that he said gods apportion calamity and misery to make good men and gods and happiness to the wicked
1. Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good, to which does justice belong?
ReplyDeleteGlaukon states that all goods can be divided into three classes: things that we desire only for their consequences, such as physical training and medical treatment; things that we desire only for their own sake, such as joy; and, the highest class, things we desire both for their own sake and for what we get from them, such as knowledge, sight, and health. What Glaukon and the rest would like Socrates to prove is that justice is not only desirable, but that it belongs to the highest class of desirable things: those desired both for their own sake and their consequences.
Glaukon points out that most people class justice among the first group. They view justice as a necessary evil, which we allow ourselves to suffer in order to avoid the greater evil that would befall us if we did away with it. Justice stems from human weakness and vulnerability. Since we can all suffer from each other’s injustices, we make a social contract agreeing to be just to one another. We only suffer under the burden of justice because we know we would suffer worse without it. Justice is not something practiced for its own sake but something one engages in out of fear and weakness. I agree with Glaukon that justice resides in the highest class among those goods which he who would be happy desires both for their own sake and for the sake of their results.
Courtney Brown
ReplyDeleteThe topic of justice and Injustice is one that reoccurs in this dialouge between Socrates and Glaucon. When talking about justice Glaucon states that good can be broken up into three major categories. The first being the "harmless enjoyable" pleasures of life. The second class of good was the knowledge and health which were desired for there results. the third class was the basic Physical or Treatment of people. Glaucon states that the third class only seeks this good for some kind of benifit for themsleves. Then using htis formula for good the two men begin to discuss how different class structures might percieve justice and injustice. at one point Glaucon makes a point that injustice can sometimes be just as good if not better than justice because it is natural as well. An intresting part of this exerpt is when Socrates is talking to Adeimantus about children and how there affected by things that are just and injust. I believe that Adeimantus makes a great point when he states that parents envoke this sense of justice on there children to promote good character and reputation amongs the young people. towards the end of the exerpt the topic of God is braught into play. They beging to discuss weather of not gods power can be defined as justice or injustice.
In Book VII Glaukon mentioned three kinds of good
ReplyDeleteThe guardians seeking knowledge and understanding and the ability to make sound judgments and to follow through on them
The spirited element seeks honor, competition and victory, glory and fame.The commercial class seeks pleasure, physical comfort, sensual excitement, etc. I believe either on of this ‘kinds of good ‘ justice belong to because is an assumption on life and how is going to be if we live up to it. Is more like character and reputation rather than justice.
Adeimantus saw a different side of the to glaucon’s argument about justice and injustice focusing more on the religion. As we mention before with the poets was that wrote many beautiful things, but did not know the meaning of it. Poems and religion are assumptions of being just. Religions and poems implement how it will be healthier to be just and do well for human kind.
The requirements of the guardians in the proposed city were to implement self-disciplined, moral values keeping a positive mind and a healthy spiritual life. It was also to do good for others.
Glaucon reveals us that, there is tree sort of goods: To do injustice by nature is good; To suffer injustice is evil, but evil is greater than the good.The life of injust is better than the life of just.The true healthy constitution of the State.
ReplyDeleteThe justice must belong the true healthy constitution of the State because that will be a solid foundation to organize all aspects of the social life.
Adeimantos find out poets must cast their tales,and must observe their limits to avoid a confrontation with the religion's rules. He also find that God truly is one who decides of the sort of poetry, epic ,lyric or tragic. God is the author of the misery, then the poet is not to be permitted to say nothing bad about God.
In the proposed city the requirements of the guardians are: They must be brave to fight well,also they must be mentally and spiritually well being.
As I read all comments I found out that Justice must be done in many ways. then I ask myself where is the true justice we should depend on it?
ReplyDeletewhat's the requirements of the guardians in the proposed city?
ReplyDeleteJust as socrates and adeimantus discussed,a good urdian must unite himself with philosophy, spirit, swiftness and strength.
they must be like a well-bred dog like the youth of the city.I do agree with this although
I think about that same dog and same youth,and how both can be easily distracted,and in a sense with a piece of meat.so my question is,doesnt a good guardian need discipline?and even if he were to have all these qualities,he is still human and liable to err.
Glaucon mentions the three goods and divides them into classes but he also mentions that there is also good in injustice. That when you do injustice on to others is good for you. In addition, if injustice is done to you then that is not as good. My understanding of this is that if you don’t want some unfair done to you don’t do to others what unless you want the same treatment. That parents and guardians are to teach their children and the younger ones about being fair and just to people to protect their reputation. That’s the argument proposed by Adeimantus.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Recio
In Republic, book 2, Glaucon mention three kinds or classes of good. The first, "harmless pleasures and enjoyments, which delight us at the time...."
ReplyDeleteThe second, "knowledge, sight, health, which are desirable not only in themselves, but also for their results?"
And the third, such as gymnastic, and the care of the sick, and the physician's art; also the various ways of money-making --these do us good but we regard them as disagreeable; and no one would choose them for their own sakes, but only for the sake of some reward or result which flows from them?"
Glaucon brought this concept of good in order to hear Socrates stance on justice and where it belong in these three classes.
Socrates replied with, "In the highest,...among those goods which he who would be happy desires both for their own sake and for the sake of their results."
Stating that justice, to his understanding was the pursuit of that which, is beneficial to the individual and is good to justice itself.
As the conversation progresses, Socrates and Adeimantus start discussing society in the form of creating one in order to use it as an example.
They start with a simple group of people, one each taking a role.
As it society grow, so do their demand and wants.
On to this, Adeimantus, at one point brings up the argument of what tales should be taught to young moldable minds. He asked Socrates should they not censor the poets that portray the gods in tales of lie and deceit. Tales which would show the gods perpetrating unjust acts.
Socrates argues that the poets have to be wrong since the gods, with what is understood of them, could not possibily act in such a way, since it would not in the best interest of them, or justice.
Since it is understood that the gods are meant to be shining examples of good.
Further more; he, to some extent, proves that the gods are not responsible of everything that occurs to man, good or bad. Just of some good acts. That injustice must be attributed to some other force. Whether it's a result of man itself or some other being.
Lastly, while the discussion of their fictional society, with growth, evidently wants will turn into more desire. Be it for wants or necessity,
will bring out acts of war. So they proposed that guardians would be needed for this city. What traits would be considered necessary for such a guardian?
They both agreed that a guardian would need to be brave and fight well. To be a practitioner of the art of war. That he would need to also have the spirited nature of savage animal to overcome his enemies.
To this, Adeimantus added that an additional trait would be need, the ability to differentiate between friend and enemy. In order to prevent the guardian from impatiently lashing out at it's fellow citizens due to an inability to control his savaged spirit. Adeimantus felt that this very contradiction made the task impossible to find such men.
Socrates quickly proposed that they study the dog. An animal that could be docile with his master and humans he determines to be friends. And when crossed by a stranger, he acts in anger. At times attacking. Believing that if such a simple creature as a dog could operate in such a manner, then surely human must be capable of contradicting traits.
Justice fell into the category of the following vitue by possitive inner means. Even if it might not end up with the best of all results, what matters its the ability and pursue of following it. Justice can be missenterpeted by several ideas, in which the main purpose would be to distort the virtue of fiarness. Justice of the individual and the state are different. Yet Justice itself it's followed by good means. Poems and religion are spoken and thaught upon kids, with no phisical or mortal proof. We get the advices of elders, saying that we must be just and frank. Yet we aren't taught why it might get us to be succesful in life. Words and advices can be easily spoken. But the validity it's verasity and certainty fell into question when we grew up, when we experience the just and unjust. It results difficul to one man like Socrates, to completly describe why our elders say that kind of words to us, and to really proof if it's right to follow our elder's advice or our own views about justice. In order for any individual to enter the city a small part of knowledge of themselves, such as freedom, property and other goods, must be left behind to enter a state or brootherhood. A compromise should be made in, before someone joins a group.
ReplyDelete?
ReplyDelete1. Glauton postulates three types of good: (1) where the good isdesired only for its consequence or benefit, such as physical trainingand medical treatment; (2) where the good is welcomed in itself likethe emotion of joy; (3) where the good is cherished both for its ownsake and for what we get from it, such as knowledge and health.Socrates says that #3 fits for justice. However, Glauton and othersask Socrates to prove his argument, saying that most people would saythat justice belongs to #3. For them, Justice is not somethingpracticed for its own sake but something one engages in out of fearand weakness. 2. Adeimantos finds in poems and religions that the unjust not onlycan manipulate and force its way here on earth but that it also hasresources to compel the gods to treat it favorably. In other words,the unjust person not only will control things on earth but willcontrol the gods. Therefore, Adeimantos wants Socrates to prove whyjustice in itself is superior to injustice. 3. For Plato, the guardians are those who are responsible formanagement of the society itself. Plato held that effective sociallife requires guardians of two distinct sorts: (1) soldiers whosefunction is to defend the state against external enemies and toenforce its laws, (2) rulers who resolve disagreements among citizensand make decisions about public policy. One of their most evidentcharacteristics will be a temperamental inclination towardphilosophical thinking. Education is the requirement of guardians toachieve the proper balance of many disparate components throughphysical training and musical performance along with basicintellectual development.
ReplyDeleteGlaukon mentioned three kinds of goods which were the highest class of goods the second class of goods and the third class of goods. The First of goods was justice according to Glaukon.
ReplyDeleteThe first were the goods that were desired only for benefits such as physical training and medical treatment such as one that you would recieve from a doctor or hospital. The second good was a emotional one such as joy and happiness and the third was the good that was used in both ways such as knowledge and health.
What Glaukon wanted socrates to prove was that justice is not only desirable, but that it belongs to the highest class of desirable things. He asked Socrates if they didnt censor the poets that portray the gods in tales of lie and deceit that injustice would benefit more than justice.
The requirement of guardians in the proposed city was to implement self discipline and moral values, keeping a positive mind and a healthy spiritual life. Also Gluakan stated that "evil is grater then good" so if you practiced one it would be hard to try to avoid the other.
Glaucon speaks of justice claiming that it is simply a compromise between an unjust side and a side that had an injustice done to them. If one could choose to commit a so called injustice as oppose to having it done to them, it would be easy to do, whether that person is considered to be good or not. Having the option of doing the injustice or having it done to them actually justifies commiting an injustice because the only other option is to have it done to them. Although this paticular situation lacks a compromise, it does lean towards the lesser evil depending on which side of the situation you are on. Despite justice being in the highest class of goods, it still may require some evil to be done in order to achieve it, which supports when Glaucon says "Evil is greater than good." I believe that Glaucon is trying to say that good occurs naturally, and evil doesn't occur naturally but is still far more tempting than good.
ReplyDelete